I learned something Friday night while getting in some night solo time. I
called Whidbey Approach for a few minutes of flight following and possibly
clipping their Class C, and the controller annonced radar contact, and then
issued a squawk. I hadn't given my position (I wasn't too sure where I was
anyway :-) ). He apparently didn't find it necessary to talk to me after I
popped up with the discrete code.

I was probably the only VFR target in his entire airspace, so there was no
ambiguity. Still, question for the controllers, is it standard procedure to
announce radar contact to an untagged target?

-- David Brooks

Ooops, wrong newsgroup (since this is a VFR question). Putting that right.

"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> I learned something Friday night while getting in some night solo time. I
> called Whidbey Approach for a few minutes of flight following and possibly
> clipping their Class C, and the controller annonced radar contact, and
then
> issued a squawk. I hadn't given my position (I wasn't too sure where I was
> anyway :-) ). He apparently didn't find it necessary to talk to me after I
> popped up with the discrete code.
>
> I was probably the only VFR target in his entire airspace, so there was no
> ambiguity. Still, question for the controllers, is it standard procedure
to
> announce radar contact to an untagged target?
>
> -- David Brooks
>
>

I've gotten that as well, usually when I've provided a specific location and
altitude during quiet periods were there is no ambiguity. Usually they'll
say "radar contact, standby for squawk code" while they enter me into the
system for a flight following.

The fact that you didn't provide a position at all is interesting, but
perhaps there was no other VFR traffic in his sector. Were you flying at
4am or something? If its a rental, maybe he recognized the "N" number to be
associated with a particular departure airport. Or maybe he's psychic.

"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> I learned something Friday night while getting in some night solo time. I
> called Whidbey Approach for a few minutes of flight following and possibly
> clipping their Class C, and the controller annonced radar contact, and
then
> issued a squawk. I hadn't given my position (I wasn't too sure where I was
> anyway :-) ). He apparently didn't find it necessary to talk to me after I
> popped up with the discrete code.
>
> I was probably the only VFR target in his entire airspace, so there was no
> ambiguity. Still, question for the controllers, is it standard procedure
to
> announce radar contact to an untagged target?
>
> -- David Brooks
>
>

"Brad Z" > wrote in message
news:%Su7c.56442$_w.905441@attbi_s53...
> I've gotten that as well, usually when I've provided a specific location
and
> altitude during quiet periods were there is no ambiguity. Usually they'll
> say "radar contact, standby for squawk code" while they enter me into the
> system for a flight following.
>
> The fact that you didn't provide a position at all is interesting, but
> perhaps there was no other VFR traffic in his sector. Were you flying at
> 4am or something? If its a rental, maybe he recognized the "N" number to
be
> associated with a particular departure airport. Or maybe he's psychic.get
in

Whidbey Appoach airspace is comparatively small, and I wasn't kidding that I
was almost certainly the only VFR target around, although it was 8pm on a
clear Friday. Nobody but me and an IFR practice were talking to him anyway.
It's a rental so you're right, he could have known where I was heading from.
50% of the time it's a trainee behind the mike, so I may have jumped to an
unfair conclusion...

>
> "David Brooks" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I learned something Friday night while getting in some night solo time.
I
> > called Whidbey Approach for a few minutes of flight following and
possibly
> > clipping their Class C, and the controller annonced radar contact, and
> then
> > issued a squawk. I hadn't given my position (I wasn't too sure where I
was
> > anyway :-) ). He apparently didn't find it necessary to talk to me after
I
> > popped up with the discrete code.
> >
> > I was probably the only VFR target in his entire airspace, so there was
no
> > ambiguity. Still, question for the controllers, is it standard procedure
> to
> > announce radar contact to an untagged target?
> >
> > -- David Brooks
> >
> >
>
>

<<Still, question for the controllers, is it standard procedure to
announce radar contact to an untagged target?>>

Happens occasionally with our flight school's airplanes. They
obviously recognize the tail number and know where we are.

It's a bit annoying, actually, since I have normally prepared the
student for a different sequence of dialog and it really throws them
off.

David Brooks wrote:
> I learned something Friday night while getting in some night solo time. I
> called Whidbey Approach for a few minutes of flight following and possibly
> clipping their Class C, and the controller annonced radar contact, and then
> issued a squawk. I hadn't given my position (I wasn't too sure where I was
> anyway :-) ). He apparently didn't find it necessary to talk to me after I
> popped up with the discrete code.
>
> I was probably the only VFR target in his entire airspace, so there was no
> ambiguity. Still, question for the controllers, is it standard procedure to
> announce radar contact to an untagged target?



Yes.

David Brooks ) wrote:

> I was probably the only VFR target in his entire airspace, so there was no
> ambiguity. Still, question for the controllers, is it standard procedure to
> announce radar contact to an untagged target?

I get this a lot when returning into Syracuse, NY (KSYR) class C airspace.
I still include my position report when replying to the squawk code, just
to be redundant.

--
Peter












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"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
> I learned something Friday night while getting in some night solo time. I
> called Whidbey Approach for a few minutes of flight following and
> possibly clipping their Class C, and the controller annonced radar
> contact, and then issued a squawk. I hadn't given my position (I wasn't
> too sure where I was anyway :-) ). He apparently didn't find it necessary
> to talk to me after I popped up with the discrete code.
>
> I was probably the only VFR target in his entire airspace, so there was
> no ambiguity. Still, question for the controllers, is it standard
procedure
> to announce radar contact to an untagged target?
>

No. He was guessing. It may have been a good guess, but that's not proper
radar identification.

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "David Brooks" > wrote in message
> ...

> > I was probably the only VFR target in his entire airspace, so there was
> > no ambiguity. Still, question for the controllers, is it standard
> procedure
> > to announce radar contact to an untagged target?
> >
>
> No. He was guessing. It may have been a good guess, but that's not
proper
> radar identification.

It's probably a good thing Bud Turner is no longer (a) at KNUW (b)
apparently online. He might have felt it his duty to go stop a practice that
seems to work fine :-)

-- David Brooks

"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
> It's probably a good thing Bud Turner is no longer (a) at KNUW (b)
> apparently online. He might have felt it his duty to go stop a practice
that
> seems to work fine :-)
>

It'll work fine until the day an aircraft calls that isn't being painted and
there's one that is being painted but hasn't called. There's a reason it
isn't proper radar identification.

Once when I was working graveyards, and off work but awake at night, I
made a night XC at about 4 am across the local Class B airspace. When I
landed, I shut down, refueled and when departing popped up with approach
for flight following. No sooner than I released the mic, he relied
Radar Contact, and gave me a squawk code.

Chances are, I was the only guy within 30 miles he was working.

Dave

David Brooks wrote:
> I learned something Friday night while getting in some night solo time. I
> called Whidbey Approach for a few minutes of flight following and possibly
> clipping their Class C, and the controller annonced radar contact, and then
> issued a squawk. I hadn't given my position (I wasn't too sure where I was
> anyway :-) ). He apparently didn't find it necessary to talk to me after I
> popped up with the discrete code.
>
> I was probably the only VFR target in his entire airspace, so there was no
> ambiguity. Still, question for the controllers, is it standard procedure to
> announce radar contact to an untagged target?
>
> -- David Brooks
>
>

In article t>, "Steven P.
McNicoll" > writes:

>It'll work fine until the day an aircraft calls that isn't being painted and
>there's one that is being painted but hasn't called. There's a reason it
>isn't proper radar identification.
>

It is my memory that about 30 years ago a number (like 25) people were drowned
in Lake Erie by this type mistake. The photo plane was in the right position
over land and the jump plane was over the lake (above cloud cover). Radar
advisory confused the two and told the jump plane he was in position. Don't
know, didn't they have transponders then?

Chuck

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message =
...
> In article >,
> (PaulaJay1) wrote:
>=20
> >=20
> > It is my memory that about 30 years ago a number (like 25) people =
were drowned
> > in Lake Erie by this type mistake. The photo plane was in the right =
position
> > over land and the jump plane was over the lake (above cloud cover). =
Radar
> > advisory confused the two and told the jump plane he was in =
position. Don't
> > know, didn't they have transponders then?
> >=20
> > Chuck
>=20
> Are you trying to tell me that a jump plane released jumpers out of=20
> sight of land and with no navigation other than a radar controller=20
> telling them where they were???
>=20
> Also, 105.17 says, "No person may conduct a parachute operation [...]=20
> (a) Into or through a cloud". Was that regulation (or something=20
> similar) not in effect at that time?

I'm fairly sure that was one of several incidents which triggered that =
regulation.
---JRC---

In article >,
(PaulaJay1) wrote:

> In article t>, "Steven P.
> McNicoll" > writes:
>
> >It'll work fine until the day an aircraft calls that isn't being painted and
> >there's one that is being painted but hasn't called. There's a reason it
> >isn't proper radar identification.
> >
>
> It is my memory that about 30 years ago a number (like 25) people were drowned
> in Lake Erie by this type mistake. The photo plane was in the right position
> over land and the jump plane was over the lake (above cloud cover). Radar
> advisory confused the two and told the jump plane he was in position. Don't
> know, didn't they have transponders then?
>
> Chuck

Are you trying to tell me that a jump plane released jumpers out of
sight of land and with no navigation other than a radar controller
telling them where they were???

Also, 105.17*says, "No person may conduct a parachute operation [...]
(a) Into or through a cloud". Was that regulation (or something
similar) not in effect at that time?

"PaulaJay1" > wrote in message
...
>
> It is my memory that about 30 years ago a number (like 25) people
> were drowned in Lake Erie by this type mistake. The photo plane
> was in the right position over land and the jump plane was over the
> lake (above cloud cover). Radar advisory confused the two and
> told the jump plane he was in position. Don't know, didn't they
> have transponders then?
>

They existed then, but they were less common.

It's no surprise he knows where you are. In the UK the emergency frequency
controllers know your position by triangulation of the radio signal. Last
time I tested it, they gave me my position within four seconds after I
called them. This was without me giving any indication of my location.

Most serious radio facilities have this facility here, and I am sure they
had it also at Whidby, it's a busy bit of airspace.

John

"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> "Brad Z" > wrote in message
> news:%Su7c.56442$_w.905441@attbi_s53...
> > I've gotten that as well, usually when I've provided a specific location
> and
> > altitude during quiet periods were there is no ambiguity. Usually
they'll
> > say "radar contact, standby for squawk code" while they enter me into
the
> > system for a flight following.
> >
> > The fact that you didn't provide a position at all is interesting, but
> > perhaps there was no other VFR traffic in his sector. Were you flying
at
> > 4am or something? If its a rental, maybe he recognized the "N" number
to
> be
> > associated with a particular departure airport. Or maybe he's
psychic.get
> in
>
> Whidbey Appoach airspace is comparatively small, and I wasn't kidding that
I
> was almost certainly the only VFR target around, although it was 8pm on a
> clear Friday. Nobody but me and an IFR practice were talking to him
anyway.
> It's a rental so you're right, he could have known where I was heading
from.
> 50% of the time it's a trainee behind the mike, so I may have jumped to an
> unfair conclusion...
>
> >
> > "David Brooks" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I learned something Friday night while getting in some night solo
time.
> I
> > > called Whidbey Approach for a few minutes of flight following and
> possibly
> > > clipping their Class C, and the controller annonced radar contact, and
> > then
> > > issued a squawk. I hadn't given my position (I wasn't too sure where I
> was
> > > anyway :-) ). He apparently didn't find it necessary to talk to me
after
> I
> > > popped up with the discrete code.
> > >
> > > I was probably the only VFR target in his entire airspace, so there
was
> no
> > > ambiguity. Still, question for the controllers, is it standard
procedure
> > to
> > > announce radar contact to an untagged target?
> > >
> > > -- David Brooks
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

I'm not a controller, so I can't speak intelligently on standard
procedure involving radar contact. I do however fly frequently at
night in and around Class B PIT airspace. I always use flight
following at night and can not recall any instance when I was "radar
contact" without first being assigned a code.

Rick

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 20:56:36 -0800, "David Brooks"
> wrote:

>I learned something Friday night while getting in some night solo time. I
>called Whidbey Approach for a few minutes of flight following and possibly
>clipping their Class C, and the controller annonced radar contact, and then
>issued a squawk. I hadn't given my position (I wasn't too sure where I was
>anyway :-) ). He apparently didn't find it necessary to talk to me after I
>popped up with the discrete code.
>
>I was probably the only VFR target in his entire airspace, so there was no
>ambiguity. Still, question for the controllers, is it standard procedure to
>announce radar contact to an untagged target?
>
>-- David Brooks
>



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Next time you call up give your position relative to a published VFR
reporting point, one of them little purple flags on the sectional.
Those points are also on the radar scope.



Rick McPherson wrote:
> I'm not a controller, so I can't speak intelligently on standard
> procedure involving radar contact. I do however fly frequently at
> night in and around Class B PIT airspace. I always use flight
> following at night and can not recall any instance when I was "radar
> contact" without first being assigned a code.

KP wrote:


>
> DF is hasn't been used in US ATC facilities for probably 30-40 years. It
> may have hung around a little longer in FSSs.


The AFSS's here and in North Dakota still have DF capability.

Roy Smith > wrote
> Are you trying to tell me that a jump plane released jumpers out of
> sight of land and with no navigation other than a radar controller
> telling them where they were???

Yes, that is exactly what happened. That particular incident is quite
famous in the history of skydiving. In fact, back when I instructed,
that was the incident that we used to underscore the importance of not
exiting the airplane if you can't see the ground. The sport has since
changed, and exiting without seeing the ground is once again
relatively common (if not generally legal) - but now it's done with
GPS guidance. Eventually some pilot will incorrectly program or
interpret the GPS and this will happen again.

> Also, 105.17*says, "No person may conduct a parachute operation [...]
> (a) Into or through a cloud". Was that regulation (or something
> similar) not in effect at that time?

That regulation is quite commonly broken even today, though this may
have been prior to the existence of Part 105.

Michael

Thanks Newps, I usually report in relation to the nearest airport,
most often the one I just departed from. I'll keep the "flags" in mind
for future use.
On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 04:19:58 GMT, Newps > wrote:

>Next time you call up give your position relative to a published VFR
>reporting point, one of them little purple flags on the sectional.
>Those points are also on the radar scope.
>
>
>
>Rick McPherson wrote:
>> I'm not a controller, so I can't speak intelligently on standard
>> procedure involving radar contact. I do however fly frequently at
>> night in and around Class B PIT airspace. I always use flight
>> following at night and can not recall any instance when I was "radar
>> contact" without first being assigned a code.



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